Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Good evening, friends. Matt and I are in South Africa for ministry. We are spending some time with our great friends, Pastor Alma and her husband Paul. And Alma and I have been chatting behind the scenes a bit, but I want to ask her a few questions that I've received from many of you.
Start interviewing and getting content out there for real life stuff.
So, Alma, I would like to ask you just casually, woman to woman, heart to heart, as a woman in ministry, what are your challenges? How do you experience challenges? Or is there still any challenges for you as a woman in ministry?
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Hi, Vicky. Hi, everyone.
It's nice to be with you. And thank you for visiting us and coming to us and yeah, it's actually a very broad question because ministry in itself is very difficult.
I think if you ask any person in full time ministry, it is not. You have to be called.
It's not something. It's not something that you choose because he. He calls you, the Lord calls you, and you can either respond to it, but the calling will forever be upon your life. If you run from it, it will still be there.
[00:01:31] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: And ministry in South Africa in the context of our cult culture, it's difficult for a woman because of our traditional view.
Growing up as a Afrikaner.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I never saw a woman preached growing up. Never ever women was always busy with the children.
I'm 60, 61 years old now, and I'm walking with the Lord since I was 10 years old. Wow. But I was 21 when he called me.
[00:02:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: So I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior when my father led me to the Lord. And I was 10 years old. And at the age of 21, in a very dark place in my life, he met me there. He came and he rescued me, saved my life.
And I received a distinctive call from the Lord, a mandate from the call from the Scriptures. And with my understanding, I had a limited understanding or of what he was calling me to, because my perception was serving in a ministry under a minister in either sisters or the sisters or the children.
And so it was really a learning curve for me to walk this road.
And there was a lot of inner wars that I had to conquer and overcome myself because of my culture and the tradition.
[00:03:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: So it was not.
It was not an easy transition within myself even just to say, oh, the Lord called me and there we go. So it was. There was a lot of questions, a lot of uncertainty and a lot of.
Because I had no frame of reference.
[00:03:20] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I had no one that I can go to and say, tell me what is Ministry, what is it to be like what it is for a woman to be in black men in ministry?
[00:03:32] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: I had nothing because what I sense in my spirit was not what I saw.
[00:03:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: It was not what was familiar to me. And it was difficult to convey that because no one, if I wanted to talk about it, they, they will think, think, oh, you're young and you're immature and ambitious. And so I kept it in my heart.
So with the first call in 85, I went into the mission field, I resigned my work and I went into the missionary field by faith.
But the challenges in ministry is, first of all, in our context, is definitely cultural, traditional. And then also the traditional view of women in ministry that Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:12, it doesn't allow women to preach or teach. Allow women to teach and have authority over men.
Now that scripture is always the, the axe.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah, punchline.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Yeah, the punchline.
But if you, if you go to the Oran, original Greek, it says that Paul does not allow women to use authority over men.
And that's quite something different.
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Because that same Paul says in Galatians that there's no male, non female or Greek or Jew or freeman or slave in Christ.
Because the anointing is not a gender.
[00:05:12] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: The anointing doesn't have a gender.
[00:05:15] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: But as a mature woman and being in full time ministry for 17 years now, I have been in ministry long before that, but then I was, I was a member in a church and part of the leadership, but full time and also planting the church.
I have, I've grown and matured and I understand why Paul says, let no woman use authority because it is something that we need to be careful for.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Because the Word says Eve was deceived. Adam was disobedient, but Eve was deceived. And a lot of, a lot of weird teachings comes from women.
And that's why as a woman in ministry, one of the challenges and decisions that I've made, because of that view and that reality, I've made a decision, a quality decision that I will stick to the Word.
[00:06:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: I will stick to the Word.
I will not venture out of the Word.
I believe that the Spirit will not take you where the Spirit, the Word cannot sustain you.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: So I'm, for me, it's very important to be grounded in the Word.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: To be pure in the Word. And that was, that is for me a challenge. But I can see that I have grown into it. And I. And therefore when I speak the Word, this, the Word of God carries his own authority.
[00:06:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: So I don't exercise or use authority over any man or woman. It is the word that carries the authority.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: And I think also what's important is that Paul may be referred to that women will not have control over men.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: So there's a lot of school of thoughts concerning that.
But if. If God did not permit women to teach, and if God did not call women into ministry, then I've been very disobedient for 17 years.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: And you've experienced blessing upon blessing. So how is that even possible?
So I would like to ask you some questions, but I think you've answered most of them. Was there ever a moment in your life that you doubted your calling?
[00:07:36] Speaker B: I never doubted the calling. Never, ever. Because it was so clear and was so.
It was so.
It was supernaturally clear.
[00:07:48] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Because I was 21 and I went to a church camp.
And after the meeting, I knelt at my bunker. I was alone in the room, a double bunker. And I knelt and I said to the Lord, here am I, if you can use me.
I'm not. I'm not well spoken.
I'm not a natural leader.
I.
But. But if you can use something like me, then here am I. And he distinctly gave me 2 Timothy 4, verse 1. From verse 1, we say, I charge you.
[00:08:26] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: To preach the word sure. In season, out of season, if it's welcome or not welcome. And the whole mandate of the calling, I now understand, was the mandate of the calling that time. That I only caught the last portion and said, you go be evangelist and fulfill your ministry. And I thought that, well, soul winning. I can do that. So. And I. I. My first sermon was on Air Force.
[00:08:55] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: And I preached to the soldiers.
Was 18, 1986. Wow. I preached to them, and that was my first sermon. But there was never a doubt upon the calling. But there was many doubts sometimes about the way.
[00:09:14] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: He's going to use you.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Great.
What would you say to young women right now that feels cold but scared?
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Well, you cannot separate the two in the beginning, because if you are called by the Lord, it calls you to a walk of faith.
And a walk of faith is not familiar to our rational mind.
But I want also to tell them that when God calls you, the reason I'm still here, it is because it is greater than myself. Yes, it is greater. The call of God is supernatural and greater. So it's greater than any doubt, any fear, any rationalization, any calculation, even greater than your personality or your talents.
Because if I preach, I'm A very, I'm an integral. It. And I'm actually very shy and I, I, I, I like to be alone.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: I will not ever, ever speak. To speak in front of people. It's not natural to my, to, to, To Alma.
So when God calls us, he calls something out of you.
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: If that makes sense.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: It does.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Because it's not natural.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: My natural man is reclusive and I love to be alone, and my husband is a witness to that.
[00:10:55] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: And, but the call of God that what, what God has put inside of me is greater than that. It. Profound. It keeps propelling you forward.
[00:11:06] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: It propels you out of your comfort zone. It propels you out of your personality. It propels you out of your natural talent. Because like I said, I'm not a born leader, but I'm a formed leader by now. I'm formed because of the calling. Because of the calling. I had to change. I had to form. I had to step forward. I had to.
And that's why if you are called called, God says in His Word that in Hebrews 12, he says he's the author and the finisher of your faith.
[00:11:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: If he has called you, then he's also the finisher of your calling.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: And he will equip the calling.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: He will equip you.
[00:11:50] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: And all they ask you is the willingness to, to just follow.
Because you will never, ever know where he will take you.
Because as I'm sitting here 50 years, 40 years later, after the calling, 50 years after I gave my heart to the Lord, I have walked on roads and went to places physically and spiritually that I never, ever thought in my life I will visit.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: And that is. That is the wonderful thing.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Thing, yes.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: Answering the call, but also walking the walk of life. But you die.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: To yourself.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: You die.
[00:12:35] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Yourself, to your, to your personality, to your inclination to what is comfortable.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: What is.
You die.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Because that's the word. The Word says, he who lays down his life will find Zillah.
[00:12:51] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: And he who loves his life will lose his life.
[00:12:54] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: That's brilliantly answered.
Do you think that the church as a whole is changing in this area with regards to women in ministry?
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: I mean, if you look at the.
I know you don't necessarily listen to other people.
I'm a fan of Lisa Harper, Priscilla Shire.
I listen to some of Holy Furtig stuff. And at different stages in my life, I don't only listen to that, but when I do, I also listen to swindles a lot. When I want teaching.
So with regards to the American system and all of that, I think that they've already adopted the whole women in ministry thing. But here, do you think in Africa that the church is changing with regards to that?
[00:13:42] Speaker B: What is actually very interesting when we go up in Africa, I have a Bible school in Malawi since 2011, is that even in a very traditional culture, the anointing is always recognized.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: The anointing doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. It is always recognized. Even in a very, very rural traditional environment like in Malawi or Mozambique or in some Zimbabwe is at the moment there's anointing.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: It doesn't matter. The gender.
[00:14:19] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Because it's recognized and I think it is shifting. In South Africa there's still a very traditional view because in the beginning, when I started out in 2008, I started to broadcast on television and. And we still had the factory and businesses and I went alone and there were still some men that asked me, do you, do your husband know that you are here?
Do you have your husband's permission?
[00:14:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: To do this?
So. But likely I don't get that anymore.
About a year ago, I had an incident in a Bible study, a cell group. They. I know the people for a long time and they invited me to minister at this cell group. And one of the visitors, the men who doesn't know me, he stopped me in the middle of my teaching and he said to me, the Word says this, this, this, this and confronting that I'm a woman.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: And that I'm not supposed to teach.
And the Lord just gave me such women wisdom. And I just leaned forward and I asked him, do you receive me?
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: And he said, yes, I have to because he invited me. And I just asked him again, do you receive me?
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Because Jesus said they did not receive me.
[00:15:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: So if you receive, if you can recognize as the anointing doesn't matter, then. Then you receive Jesus.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: And if you receive Jesus, then you receive the Word.
And so and I just carried on, you know, I just, I didn't retaliate, I didn't argue with him. I just continue with my teaching. And afterwards he came and talked to me and he wanted to apologize and said, you don't have to apologize to me.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Because I have, I have, I've wor. This war with the Lord.
[00:16:24] Speaker C: Yes.
Yeah.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: The same questions you are asking, I asked him, yes, because I don't have, I don't have a bone to pick.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Because I'm a woman. Yes, I'm, I'm called. And I want to preach.
[00:16:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: I want to teach. I want to. I do. I'm called to the Lord's work.
[00:16:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: I don't, I'm not here to prove anything.
[00:16:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: I.
Nothing.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: And so, so that was about a year ago. So still in some areas you do get that. But you. The Lord has given me grace to, and maturity to deal with those questions.
But it often happens when Paul is not present.
[00:17:06] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: So we are a team. We're a very, very, very solid team and a very good team.
And so that is, that is part of the challenge. And then of course, you get in in certain pockets of, of the religious world and denominate certain denominations where they do not allow women to preach at all.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: But like I said, so surprisingly in the ethnic cultures of South Africa, the moment they see the anointing, they recognize it. They recognize it and there's no problem.
And there's a maturity where you can see it's anointing and when it's performance.
[00:17:54] Speaker C: Yes, of course.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: So you've been involved in quite a few ministries and, and teachings and Bible schools and stuff. Your recent one that I personally follow as well is the truth seekers that you do on Wednesdays. I don't know what the initial plan or dream was or how long you would have done it, but I know it's been going on for.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Since February.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Since February.
In our crowds. It's been a phenomenal blessing. We have not only the women in the church, but men, everyone on, you know, listening to it, taking notes and then discussing it over the next week. And there's always a call and did you hear what, what was preached and what is your thinking? And, and it's a great, it's great teachings. So what is your dream for truth seekers?
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Truth seekers? The Word, it's a beautiful word in Greek is Alicia.
[00:18:47] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Truth is ilithya. It means that manifestation tested undiluted truth.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: It means.
And truth is not knowledge, it's not information. Because Jesus says I'm the truth.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: So true seekers, the, the, the vision of truth seekers is that for us to seek him, to have to develop and a deeper relationship with truth and that they will be to able a manifested truth that Christ will manifest himself in and through us. But in truth.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Not a half truth, not a traditional truth.
So the aim of, of my heart in truth seekers is to challenge. It is to challenge a traditional mindset because I'm coming from the Dutch Reformed Church.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: And, and so, and I Come I, I, we walked through a couple of, of denominations. I think the Lord prepared us and schooled us.
So we started out in Dutch Reformed and we went through certain denominations where we served as leaders and we were members.
So I have quite a broad view of the denominations in South Africa and the certain doctrines that they subscribe to.
And I think that we have all a portion of truth and we have a measure of truth.
But I want to push that boundary where we will take off the glasses or the framework because God is greater than our view and our perception and that we will trust him enough to take away the traditional view, the pigeonholes that we, we peer through trying to understand him from our traditional way.
And also that we are conditioned, we are truly conditioned by our parents and other leaders because they believe that is the truth. And yes it is truth, but it's not all the truth.
And there are more to truth than the pigeonhole that we have are peering through.
Because God is 360.
[00:21:04] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: God is not just a 180 view. God is a 360.
And God is and that is, that's my aim. My aim is not to, is not to prove anyone wrong.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: I don't have a case against any denomination because God, God's children is in all spheres of life and in all denomination nations and churches that is Christian based.
But I, I, I, my aim is to stimulate and to probe and to, to be a catalyst to search out the Scriptures. Because our, the greatest danger for us growing up in a religious culture is familiarity.
[00:21:46] Speaker C: Yes.
Yes.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: And we think we know.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: And we get comfortable in that setting.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah. We, we think we know the Word. We think we know the stories of the Bible.
And then we read it with that familiarity. And we, we read over truths. We read over precious nuggets. We read over revelation.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Because we assume.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: And, and this is one thing that the Lord taught me is not to assume.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: And also to challenge everything. Because I was deceived, I was sincere, but I was sincerely wrong.
[00:22:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: And because of deception, because I believed only that what that was, that what was presented to me. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey here, monkey speak.
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: And my aim is that we need to grow up.
[00:22:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: But in truth.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Me and weird stuff.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: In solid words, foundation.
[00:22:48] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Because then the Spirit can take, take us, but the Word anchors us. We are not this, this, this loose cannon.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: But we are anchored in the Word. And then he can move us in the Spirit and he can take us places in the Spirit. But the word grounds us. And I think, Dennis, that is important for any disciple.
[00:23:11] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: But especially for women. Yes, especially for women. Because we are emotional.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: And we're more inquisitive and we're more sensitive. And I think we are open to more certain nuances in the Spirit. But if we have a solid word foundation, the Holy Spirit can move us with freedom. And we will always come back to truth.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: We will not venture off into weird things.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Well, that is. Thank you very much for your time with regards to answering all of these questions. I really appreciate it. It has been a. A great session. We are going to do a few of these sessions over the next few weeks. So if you are inquisitive about ministry or want to ask some questions specifically for women, men, it doesn't matter, please make contact with me and I will make sure to have more interviews like this. And let's talk about this. I think it's a. It's a very healthy topic to talk about. But. But thank you very much for your time and for blessing us and staying in your beautiful house.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Thank you. God bless you. God bless you, everyone. By.
